Can Growth Be Green? Nick Stern and Jason Hickle on Green Growth and Post-Growth Futures

In this Guardian Science Weekly episode, Madeleine Finlay hosts a discussion with Nick Stern and Jason Hickle about whether economic growth can be decoupled from environmental harm. The conversation covers how to shift investment toward renewables, transport, and land management, the limits of decoupling, and the rise of post-growth ideas like public job guarantees and universal public services. Through case studies such as Romania and policy proposals from the degrowth camp, the episode examines how to keep living standards high while reducing emissions, and what political leadership and communication are needed to get there.

Overview

The Guardian's Science Weekly series Beyond Growth investigates the future of economic growth in the context of climate change. Host Madeleine Finlay speaks with Nick Stern, a renowned economist, and Jason Hickle, an economic anthropologist, about whether growth can be reconciled with a stable climate and thriving ecosystems. The episode frames growth as a historically rising indicator of living standards, but one that has often come with rising carbon emissions. The central question is whether we can restructure how we produce and consume to decouple growth from pollution, or whether a different model—degrowth or post-growth—offers the better path.

The Growth Dilemma: Can We Decouple Growth from Emissions?

Nick Stern argues that infinite growth on a finite planet is not the right framing for the coming decades. The challenge, he says, is to break the link between how we produce and consume and the environmental impact we generate. He emphasizes that action must be directed through investment in three core areas: energy, land, and transport. Specifically, Stern highlights renewables and storage, grid infrastructure to move energy across space and time, public transport in rapidly urbanizing areas, and reform of agricultural subsidies to restore degraded land and ecosystems. He also notes the importance of adaptation, carbon capture, and improved efficiency, arguing that with enough capital, growth could raise living standards while reducing pollution. “You have to invest,” Stern states clearly, underscoring the logic that policy progress hinges on capital commitment. - Nick Stern, Professor of Economics, London School of Economics

“Decoupling growth from emissions requires investing in renewables, grids, transport, and land” - Nick Stern, Professor of Economics, London School of Economics

Post-Growth and Green Growth: Two Roads, One Urgency

The episode contrasts green growth with post-growth or degrowth models. Jason Hickle discusses the critique that continuing GDP growth inevitably drives energy use higher, potentially undermining Paris Agreement goals if growth is not achieved at sufficient speed. He presents post-growth as a way to reorganize production toward social needs and ecological boundaries, reducing energy consumption while maintaining or improving quality of life. The conversation touches on how capitalism allocates resources toward highly profitable activities—like fossil fuels and luxury consumption—while underproducing essentials such as affordable housing, public transport, and renewable infrastructure. Hickle argues that a public jobs guarantee, universal public services, and shorter work weeks could reimagine growth as a social project rather than mere expansion of production. “A public job guarantee would permanently abolish involuntary unemployment,” he says, outlining practical policy anchors for a post-growth framework. - Jason Hickle, Economic Anthropologist

“The post-growth approach is actually a growth story, but one that grows social well‑being rather than profits” - Jason Hickle, Economic Anthropologist

Case Studies and Speed of Decarbonization

The discussion includes Romania as an example of decoupling, noting the country doubled real GDP since 1990 while emissions fell dramatically after the shift to a service-based economy and EU integration. However, experts caution that success depends on rapid decarbonization speed to meet 1.5–2 degrees targets, not merely reductions in emissions. The Lancet paper cited in the conversation argues that current rates of decoupling among high‑income countries would take centuries to reach zero emissions, underscoring the urgency of faster transitions and the potential limits of decoupling alone. The transcript emphasizes that the path forward must balance accelerating clean energy adoption with the social and political costs of transition, and that policy design and communication matter as much as technical capability.

Policy Proposals and Public Opinion

Beyond technical shifts, the dialogue covers policy mechanisms such as energy efficiency in homes, public transit investments, and reforms of agricultural subsidies. It also highlights public support for rethinking economic goals: surveys in the US and UK indicate broad interest in alternatives to constant expansion, particularly when improvements to quality of life accompany energy reductions. The conversation concludes with calls for leadership, including references to Pope Francis and historical figures who linked social justice with stewardship of the planet, suggesting moral and cultural dimensions to the climate action challenge.

Conclusion: Urgency and Pathways Forward

The episode closes by stressing that both green growth and degrowth approaches share a common goal: aligning human prosperity with planetary boundaries. The speakers urge policymakers to act decisively, invest boldly in the energy transition, and communicate the tangible benefits of cleaner urban living. The risks of delay are presented starkly, with implications for lives and livelihoods across regions and generations.

“Delay is dangerous” - Narrator